CEE Converts to Creatinine and Should be Avoided
Not long ago I wrote a blog called the “Creatine Graveyard” where I took a look at the various “high tech” forms of creatine (see list in the Graveyard blog) with a specific focus on Creatine Ethyl Ester (CEE) as a study had just been published putting CEE in a less than positive light.
The study found found CEE to be inferior to creatine monohydrate (CM) and so, CEE was dumped into he graveyard along with a bunch of others. No big shock to yours truly, additional research appears to confirm CEE is a poor choice for a replacement for CM, and now we have this latest study that finds CEE converts to creatinine (which has no ergogenic effects), which = people using CEE are throwing their hard earned $$$ away as far as I am concerned.
This study concludes “creatine ethyl ester is a pronutrient for creatinine rather than creatine under all physiological conditions encountered during transit through the various tissues, thus no ergogenic effect is to be expected from supplementation.”
In other words, as I’ve been saying for a long time now , stop wasting your money…
Below is the abstract for those interested in such things. It’s my advice at this time that people should avoid this supplement; at best it’s a waste of money, and at worst, will elevate creatinine levels which may be contraindicated for some populations.
Non-enzymatic cyclization of creatine ethyl ester to creatinine
Matthew W. Giese
Department of Chemistry,
Marian University,
3200 Cold Spring Rd.,
Indianapolis, IN 46222, USA
Received 28 July 2009.
Available online 4 August 2009.
Creatine ethyl ester was incubated at 37 °C in both water and phosphate-buffered saline and the diagnostic methylene resonances in the 1H NMR spectrum were used to identify the resultant products. It was found that mild aqueous conditions result in the cyclization of creatine ethyl ester to provide inactive creatinine as the exclusive product, and this transformation becomes nearly instantaneous as the pH approaches 7.4.
This study demonstrates that mild non-enzymatic conditions are sufficient for the cyclization of creatine ethyl ester into creatinine, and together with previous results obtained under enzymatic conditions suggests that there are no physiological conditions that would result in the production of creatine.
It is concluded that creatine ethyl ester is a pronutrient for creatinine rather than creatine under all physiological conditions encountered during transit through the various tissues, thus no ergogenic effect is to be expected from supplementation.
Keywords: Creatine ethyl ester; Creatine; Creatinine; Cyclization; In vivo;
Will Brink is the owner of the Brinkzone Blog. Will has over 30 years experience as a respected author, columnist and consultant, to the supplement, fitness, bodybuilding, and weight loss industry and has been extensively published. Will graduated from Harvard University with a concentration in the natural sciences, and is a consultant to major supplement, dairy, and pharmaceutical companies.
His often ground breaking articles can be found in publications such as Lets Live, Muscle Media 2000, MuscleMag International, The Life Extension Magazine, Muscle n Fitness, Inside Karate, Exercise For Men Only, Body International, Power, Oxygen, Penthouse, Women’s World and The Townsend Letter For Doctors.
He’s also been published in peer reviewed journals.
Will is the author of the popular e-books, both accompanied by private members forum access , Bodybuilding Revealed & Fat Loss Revealed.
You can also buy Will’s other books on Amazon, Apple iBook, and Barnes and Noble.
So again, it really boils down to stick to CM as it’s tested and actually works.
Hi Will, Thanks for the article. I am profesional chemist in a pharmaceutical company, so I enjoyed this post particularly. I am surprised that the company selling the product have not performed themselves such a simple test as described in that paper. Cheers.
Harry: At the moment it does boil down to CM, but not any CM. You will see as a rule I only recommend one producer at this time: Creapure. Although I consider CEE a bust (which I said in 2005…) some of the others on the list are legit in terms of their being at least as effective as CM, with potentially additional benefits. Creatine Citrate, Creatine pyruvate, creatine Mg, etc, may be worth trying, but they also cost more, so whether their cost/benefit is worth it, remains unclear. Unlike CEE however, they don’t burst into creatinine….
Alejandro, glad you enjoyed the write up.
THANK YOU! I’ve been telling people to stay clear of this CEE bulls**t and been giving a lower star rating to the supplements I review which contain it. Then company reps email me and cry about how CM is old and CEE is the next step up and I’m discouraging evolution in supplementation by putting it in bad light.
Truth hurts….
Good stuff Will.
Dear Mr. Brink, kindly comment.
If the creatine is in amino acid kelate form, it gets completely absorbed. (True / False )
Synthetic CEE or Synthetic CM in non amino acid kelate form taps into the magnesium within the body (which is already a depleted mineral) so that it can go through the walls of the intestine…yadayadayadayada (True/False)
Herbal creatine like the one posted below, ensures 100% absorption ?
Synthetic CM or CEE can be safely absorbed only when coupled with herbal magnesium pills so that supplies of magnesium in the heart aint depleted ? (True / False )
Regards
Ejaz
P.S. Do you have an email address that i can contact you at?
Ejaz, there is a contact form for Will Brink , look at the menu at the top of the site, also he has a forum you can contact him on.
thanks Will!i was searching for a definitive answer, and now i got it.
So i will continue with my CM creapure. Do you suggest loading phase? which are the best moments to take?
wanted to let you know also that i tried the eas phosphagen elite, but nothing more than normal creatine as for the results…
Renato
Great Article – So not only does it taste like battery acid, it does diddly squat in effects!
I’m not a recent Creatine user.Your article is helpful to those that do so.You are exposing yet another supplement scam.These companies that put out worthless or even unhealthy products need to be called out on their shameless actions.Thanks for the info.
Will, glad I found the site. This was the first article emailed to me,very good info.. Also good to hear members chime in w/their opinion and info.
CHEERS,Daniel
Ejaz, the form of creatine in that product: magnesium creatine chelate is covered in the article linked above, the “creatine graveyard.” Although I don’t consider that form a worthless form of creatine (see my comments on that in the article…) there is not data to show it’s superior to CM, thus why it’s currently in the grave yard.
Renato, short answer is no, loading phase does not appear to be needed. Long answer, I recommend you download my free report on creatine (www.Creatine-report.com) and or read the various creatine articles here on the site that cover more in-depth info on creatine.
What are your thoughts on Creatine Di-Phosphate, Will?
Thanks, Will. I have been a fan for a long time.
So glad this is what you said. I thought your email was going to say that CM was out… which would have opened a really big “can of worms”.
Good stuff.
Thanks.
No its not in the graveyard. I read that article a few weeks ago. I triple checked the list for creatine di-phosphate. I was wondering about it because its made by ALRI and they have some truely legit products. I haven’t seen any emperical evidence that Creatine Di-Phosphate is supeior to CMH
Will, Thank you for the article on creatine! I saw creatine gluconate on the graveyard list. Is creatine gluconate equal to CM, but more expensive? Or is it actually inferior? Thanks, Chad
After reading this article I am a bit more informed about creatine, actually I had never used creatine before. But now I am looking into starting to use it. I did a search and I came up with the optimum nutrition brand and it uses creapure creatine. Would that be a good buy, I am looking to purchase some at the end of the week.
Thanks.
Dear Will,
Thank you for another one of your excellent articles. I took CEE for a while in the past and it seemed to me that all I got were painful bowel cramps and nothing else. Thanks for explaining me the reason of the “nothing else”.
All the best.
And the winner and still champeen is…
Creatine Monohydrate. Correct?
Guess sticking to the basic supplements will avoid the confusing
Will,
Thanks, another good article. When are we going to get back to the basics in this country instead of insisting on inviting confusion with sensationalism and hype? 99% of this stuff these days leads to disappointment, whether movie previews or products. Call me old-fashioned, but I’m holding onto hope that things get simpler someday; less quantity, less in-your-face, better quality, more pure, more essential, less fat to trim off. When will everything stop trying to “out-extreme” each other, and start becoming real again? People need to start insisting on this. It’s the only action that will take us back to reality.
Stick to good old fashioned (but effective) CM – forget about the fancy up-sells
Is creatine monohydrate 100% creapure good to use????
Hi Lewis, yeah if you read Will’s articles on Creatine, he has tons, the bottom line is that the one with the most studies, that proves itself time after time to work , that’s the most cost effective is good old fashioned CM 100% creapure, Will has said so for years.
No idea on the other questions, sure Will will answer those soon.
Without going into the science this studying is concluding that CEE is (at best) no more effective than regular CM.
If I search will I find studies which conclude that CEE is more effective than CM?
Are you just presenting this study because it supports your own opinion? No disrespect intended – its just that for every postivie study about product X there is a negative one!
All I can say is that in my personal experience (many years of it) CM does work for me. When I switched from CM to CEE I found that CEE does still work and I prefer to take the CEE rather than the CM. Also I have tried a couple of brands of CEE, and I dont think one of them worked at all (this was a budget brand).
I think it is up to the individual to make an informed decision before trying a product and then evaluate for themselves if it worked for them (and take into account any placebo effect and your own personal training commitment and nutrition at the time).
Chad, it’s a guess on my part due to lack of research, but I would expect Cr-gluconate to be equal to CM in effect, but more expensive. Should work fine as a creatine supplement if you want to spend the extra $$$ for Cr bonded to glucose…
Ross, that form of creatine, if not listed in the graveyard list would be/should be due to the same reason the others are: there is simply no hard data it’s superior to CM. I have seen no objective third part research to convince me it’s the equal of/superior to CM
Anthony: No, you will not find any research showing CEE superior to CM, unless you pull it from the sellers/marketers of CEE web sites perhaps. An opinion should be formed on the objective science, and what exists so far, finds CEE to be inferior to CM, and potentially toxic, as high levels of creatinine are not recommended for some populations with pre existing medical conditions.
It’s your money to waste, I just report the facts as they exist. At this point, CEE would be close to my last choice for a creatine product….
The entire issue of conversion to creatinine is important. In blood tests it is a marker for impaired kidney function and a potential indicator of kidney disease. A while back I “failed” a life insurance exam due to very slightly elevated creatinine levels. I supplement with CM and I know a small portion of that will be converted to creatinine and this is what put me over the upper limit. I stopped supplementing for a week and retook the blood test and PRESTO! I was back into the normal range.
This happened with CM. Imagine if I had been taking a supplement with CEE. They probably would have been putting me on dialysis and ther transplant list. Seriously, anyone getting ready for a physical exam where they will be taking blood should lay off all forms of creatine for several days prior to the blood draw.
John, you make a good point there. I cover that issue in my creatine report. In some people, CM will raise creatinine, which is an indicator (but NOT a cause!) of kidney disease. I have had many many people contact me that their blood work showed elevated creatinine levels, their doc told them they had minutes to live (joking of course…) and they asked for advice.
In every case, I told them to take a few weeks off from the creatine, make sure to hydrate well, and get re tested. In every case, levels went back to normal, doc is happy, life is good, blah, blah.
So far, no one has come back with any actual medical issues that the high creatinine levels were potentially masking. For more info on all that, read my creatine report.
Your point about CEE is a good one. Yes, I would expect to see some much higher levels of creatinine in CEE users as studies seem to indicate, and yes, that will get your docs attention (as it should…), your insurance companies attention, etc.
Thanks for that info Will. I just took a blood test and my GP called to tell me I had no kidney function. After he said that, he said please tell me you are taking some creatine and this is just a false reading. I told him yes, I had just started taking pre, during, and post work out creatine. He told me the creatine ethyl ester I was taking has been clinically proven to show high levels of creatinine and that the kidneys are not functioning, when this is obviously not the case.due to no risk factors and no renal failure symptoms. thanks for the piece of mind Will!!
Without a specialized delivery method all Creatine will be destroyed and broken up by
gastric acids thus aromatize into Creatinine inducing bloating with nothing with the
exception of water gains.
The best delivery method would be 5 gram sublingual strips to bypass the ugly
process of destruction from taking place.
JN, don’t know where you are getting your info from, but it’s incorrect. CM is quite stable and and increases muscle tissue levels of creatine and ATP. Most of the CM digested remains stable. Creatinine is simply a product of creatine metabolism, although some forms (CEE for example) can convert to creatinine before they are able to go through the normal creatine – > creatinine conversion pathway, which is why I am telling people to avoid it… Creatine’s do not “aromatize.” You are confusing androgen -> estrogen pathways which have no relation to creatine. Me thinks you might want to research the topic some more (lots of free article here, as well as the already mentioned creatine report, etc to start with…) to get the most from your creatine supplements…
I always recommend CM first as on paper your right CEE is BAD, but in the real world CM doesnt work for some and some get the CM bloat.
I know the science on CEE shows us its way inferior to CM. But science just doesnt pull out all the answers.
I know many people who swear by CEE coz it simply works for them in terms of recovery and strength. Our world isnt so black and white and people arent so dumb to buy CEE repeatedly if it didnt work.
My motto is “if it works for them, dont tell em it doesnt”
Steve said: “people arent so dumb to buy CEE repeatedly if it didnt work.”
I have heard those exact words about many many supplements over the years, and it’s what keeps various companies in business. How old are you Steve? Remember the craze that was Serum Creatine? Creatine Serum was a huge seller for a time, they made the same various BS claims, studies came out showing it was a BS product, and it’s gone. Same cycle for liquid creatine, and a few others on the list. It’s amazing how the cycle repeats itself and people choose to ignore the science. Again, I just report the facts and leave to others to decide where to spend their hard earned cash. So are people “so dumb to buy CEE repeatedly if it didn’t work”? Yes Steve, they are, or 90% of what’s on the market would not sell at all. The placebo effect is alive and well…
Here Here Will!
Will Said: How old are you Steve? 34 – Been in the iron game for 16 years.
You are a persuasive comunicator! You are right I agree 90% of the supplements on the market are all based on HOPE, and people do continually buy them… hardly anybody helps though by talking the truth about eating grass fed beef, eggs, milk or liver to gain quality muscle/strength and body composition, the way it was prior to Hoffman and the Weiders jumping on the Schiff/Blair supplement bandwagon in the 1950’s.
It would be so refreshing to hear someone talk muscle and strength without the word “supplement”. However if people choose to supplement – thats fine “if it works for them, dont tell em it doesnt”
Steve said:
“It would be so refreshing to hear someone talk muscle and strength without the word “supplement”.”
You will see all through my articles, books, etc that food and training has always been my focus, and on the private forums, food and training are the focus, and supplements are just, supplemental to a good nutrition plan and training plan. Supplements are more or less how I made/make a portion of my $$$, but I have never left that primary message. Most people don’t wanna hear that as they want the magic pill or powder. I probably take more supplements everyday then anyone reading this*, but nutrition and training always come first.
* = if anyone wants to see my current supplement intake, it can be seen HERE
Interesting article, thanks for the heads-up, especially since I am currently taking CEE. What are your thoughts on creatine gluconate? Is it effective, and most importantly is it safe. Which creatine supplement do you recommend, and for how long should it be used/cycled for maximun effects?
Thanks,
Steve Kenny
Steve, you will find gluconate discussed a few posts up in my response to Chad. Should be no danger in using the gluconate form. Also see above posts regarding what I have always recommended and continue to recommend: Creapure. Why? Read my article What’s In Your Creatine?
Hi,
When taking cm creapure, do you ad pure sugar?
If so, how do you measure 50mg.
Thanks Lewis
Lewis,
The going rate is about 5g of creatine day with some dextrose. I use Life Extension Foundation creatine and usually just put in a teaspoon of each in a mug and add hot water til it’s all dissolved. Remember to wait til its all dissolved, otherwise it won’t absorb very well in your system. If I’m wrong I’m sure Will correct me after slapping me silly. XD
XD
The creatine that I have is made by integated supplements.
so if I add one scoop which is 5g, then add one teaspoon of sugar ?
Do I have to use hot water? Or can I use cold water?
Will it dissolve in cold water??
Thanks
Lewis
Yes, as long as the creatine measures to 5g, you should be fine. Yes, roughly a teaspoon of dextrose, NOT sucrose (table sugar). You can use cold water but it will take FOREVER to dissolve, at least the LEF does. Hot water is just more convenient by working faster. That’s why most folks add it to a cup of brewed tea. I hate tea. tea is for fags. J/K!! XD
Great information. I just went and bought ONS Preworkout only one I saw with Creapure ingredients at Vitmain Shoppe. Is ONS using the Creapure you recommend? What about stacking with additional supplements? Any recommendation? i.e. Waxy Maize? What the max dose a day for 225lb male? Is this hard on the stomach and someone told me that drinking tea within one hour of creatine consumption destroys the benefit of creatine is that BS?
LOL, Will, not sure what you deleted but keep the post above – he’s funny.
Why these people don’t get that being abusive to somebody on their own website won’t end up in their rubbish being deleted is very confusing, makes you wonder sometimes.
John, as long as it says Creapure as their source of creatine, brand does not matter to me per se. You can find exact doses by reading my creatine report, or the various free articles on the site here. Search “post workout” and you will find plenty of reading materials.
Regarding Waxy Maze specifically, I cover that topic fully Here
Harry, funny thing is, the only posts that got deleted were his. If anyone can supply counter research, by all means they should supply it. Random insults and trolling will be removed…
Hello ! i have been folowing your articles and found them very usefull and up to date.i am from Romania, south east Europe, and i am glad to recive this kind of info.I still have one question…if this thing , the CEE , is known for not doing anything, why it is still used and promoted by the big companies as BSN and their products containing CEE ?
Adrian, they sell CEE for the same reasons many other products are sold that (a) either have no studies to support their use (b) have studies showing they are not effective: profit. CEE is not even close to the worst offender in that area. The list of things sold in the sports nutrition/fitness/bbing industry that are totally worthless is very long….. CEE actually appeared to have some promise when it first came out, but companies jumped the gun by selling it before there was any real supporting studies. That’s a very common practice in the industry, an industry that is much more marketing/hype driven then science driven.
One more question on cm creapure.
If you suppose to drink it in warm water so it will dissolve.
Then I can have it in tea or hot water as I work out.
But after my work out ,How do you drink it with your protein?
I poured warm water in my protein mix with the cm, then added some cool water.
Would that work ok??
Lewis
Lewis,
Some folks put it in their protein drink, (either before or after) but I believe the most benefits come when using it after a workout, to help in recovery. (I’m really being tested on how much I remember my Midnight Will Brink! 😉
I don’t see the point in putting creatine in a protein drink and adding warm anything, since heat can denature the protein in your powder. On the other hand, if you mix the creatine (or buy protein powder with creatine mixed in already) you would have to make sure it is dissolved fully. I don’t trust myself to know when it would be fully dissolved so, just to keep it simple (KISS), I just take it separately mixed with some warm water, after I am finished with my post workout protein drink. I suppose, if you want to use it in your protein drink, make sure you don’t feel any grittiness from the creatine; since that is a sure indicator that it hasn’t fully dissolved yet. I’ve had instances where I’ve put my mug down and came back to find it cold and the creatine has re-crystallized from sitting there. It does happen.
Hope that helps
How often do you take creatine.
Only after your work out?
And how about on your off days (no work out )??
Lewis
Lewis,
I take it every day (if I can remember) even on my off days. Its my off days that I tend to forget to take it. 😀
So, once a day ,twice a day.
I figure one in the morning and one at night.
On work out days ,one in the morning and one after work out.
Correct??
Thanks
Lewis
Lewis,
Once a day. If you want to split the 5g into two servings go ahead, but I don’t see the point in making the routine more complicated. I would just stick to taking it post workout on your training days and whenever you can, possibly on an empty stomach on your off days, or whenever it’s convenient
Hi,
just recently stumbled across your website. Great stuff! Still at this iron thing. At 57 I’ve seen it all and taken almost all and can say the majority of stuff out there is creative marketing garbage and must be scrutinized carefully before buying. Rarely do we find a site that will provide some backup from someone who actually has a brain. Very much appreciate the scientific as well as practical info about all this stuff. Glad to read the creatine stuff. Will search out Creapure and stay there a while. Keep it coming.
This is a very informative and interesting blog. Can someone please recommend a pre-workout drink?
Bob,
have found Endurance Fuel by Twinlab to be worth the cost. In particular for jogging and more endurance related workouts.
Dennis,
Thanks for the suggestion. I will give it a try. It is real tough starting to workout at 8:30 at night. I need something to give me a boost of energy and coffee didn’t do the trick.
I have a question for Will Brink:
what are your blood creatine numbers, and are you happy with them?
Amos, blood creatine is not checked, blood creatinine is what’s checked, and my numbers have always been fine. Read my article “It’s In Your Blood” for more information.
Will,
i bougth your ebook (the FLR, to slim), used your FLR forum, and knew that you posted your blood test at least once (the link you just posted), and the creatine test was not there, that is why i asked.
I know that creatine was not a FLR supp, so to say, despite the sucess of the “erp7e drink” and a few other threads 🙂
Creatine is (as creatinine) available to test from the blood.
Since you done much more expensive bllod tests, why didnt you tested blood creatine?
This is not personal, but a generic question.
Doesnt make sense to test creatine in the blood? Why?
Wouldnt it be a good thing for vegans to do? Or even vegetarians?
Can it be a way to see if a supp is working, if it raises well creatine blood levels?
Amos, creatine is not a standard blood test. You will not see it on any standard blood test sheet used by docs. In a lab, serum creatine could be checked, but that would be under a research setting. I know of no standard lab tests that looks at creatine.
Tissue levels are what matter with creatine as a supplement, and that too can only be looked at under research conditions and done as a biopsy. There’s really no reason for it as plenty of research already exists (much of which can be found in this site for example….) showing what happens to tissue, serum, etc when a known dose of creatine monohydate is taken.
So, knowing how much creatine is in your blood is really of no value to the user, it’s not a standard test you can ask your doctor for, and there’s plenty of existing research that shows what happens after the supplement is taken.
Creatinine is what’s tested because that’s a potential marker for kidney pathology. As a rule, the blood work you can get done in your doctors office (vs say a lab at some university) is designed to spot health related problems, and creatinine falls under that use.
Are creatine Mono pills effective? If so, which
ones are the best?
Pills are not recommended Scott. Stick to powder.
Will. Any comments on Kre-Alkalyn 1500(ph balanced creatine)? Used it now for three months and the results are awesome. Have to combine it with Gluta-lyn though for best results. But gained 30% in strenght since taking it and not using any steriods anymore. The results are slower but awesome to use a natural product and just get off the steriods.
Gerrit, read the article "the creatine graveyard" linked in the above write up on this study. That covers my thoughts on various forms of creartine. 😉
Oh right, you know better than the scientists that have actually clinically proved Kre-Alkalyn increased strength in Olympic class power lifters by 28% over regular creatine like creapure? So what research do you base your bogus relegation of Kre-Alkalyn to the graveyard? Come on big mouth, show us your research that proves it doesn’t, I dare you to even try (and make yourself look even more stupid). How much are Creapure paying you to promote their brand for them?
I am a scientist Greg, and have published in the peer reviewed lit. See my bio…No published study on Kre-Alk comparing CM showing such effects exists. What you see in the marketing lit, etc, is not of no value. If you have a journal title, date, vol, page #, etc on such a study you think I missed, feel free to supply that. If you have the science background for the conversation, great. If not, best not to lecture a person who has far more experience in the supp industry, research, etc then you do. Now, if your response is respectful and adds some useful content to this blog, I’ll leave it. If not, I wont and you’ll be banned pronto. Your choice. I have said all there is to say in the article, and the many responses here, unless you have something new to add to the topic.
I have been taking CEE for 9 months now. I won’t be wasting my money on this product anymore. Thank you Will.
advertising
advertising
Cheap Revia Online American Express No Script